Transcript of Privilege, Parity, and Pie: Part 1 of a Conversation with Better Allies Author Karen Catlin

Cathy: Welcome to Parity, a podcast for everyone ready for a workplace of true gender parity with equal numbers of women and men at all levels of organizations including the coveted top positions. Women have had the right to vote for 100 years, but most experts believe that we will not achieve workplace parity for another 135 years. 135 years is a long time friends to wait for equality. The goal of this podcast is to accelerate this change by being a coach, mentor and trusted friend for all of you who are ready now. I'm Cathy Nestrick. Waiting for 135 years until we achieve workplace parity is not okay with me and that is why I was motivated to start this podcast with my good friend Deborah.

Deborah: I am your cohost, Deborah Pollack Milgate and Cathy, waiting for 135 years is also not okay with me. I am so glad that you and I have teamed up to do something to accelerate gender parity in the workplace. I am committed to doing everything I can to help create a workplace where women have the opportunity to use and expand on the many talents we have friends today. We're welcoming the author of the book Better Allies to the show and I could not be more excited. If you've listened to some of our episodes from season one, then you know that Karen Catlin is who we're talking about because we have referenced her work and Better Allies before, especially when we talk about how to create a corporate culture that is inclusive.

Karen Catlin worked for 25 years in the tech industry, including at Adobe where she observed more men than women being promoted into leadership roles and it wasn't because of merit or competency too often the decision to promote was based on gender bias. So Karen decided to take action because she didn't think it was really that hard to be an ally to underrepresented people in the workplace or to create an environment where we all thrive and this takes us right to Karen's work, Better Allies. I have, Karen, a lot more to say about your work and its influence on the Parity Podcast. But first let's welcome you officially to the show. We are looking forward to a thought-provoking conversation today.

Karen: It is such a pleasure to be here. I am thrilled and I can't wait for our conversation.

Deborah: So we know Karen that Better Allies is on its second edition and that you published the five Better Allies action items routinely. But can you tell our listeners a little more about yourself and the back story of how you came to write your book.

Karen: Sure. So as you mentioned, I worked in tech. I worked in tech for 25 years and I actually noticed a decline happening in gender diversity in my industry when I started out my career writing code for a living as a software engineer. That used to be more women getting computer science degrees and going into this wonderful profession that is software, but it did decline over time and that's when I felt this called the action as a senior leader in my company. I wanted to make sure women felt they could grow their careers and thrive. And so I started our employee resource group for women. I started mentoring a lot of women and looking to be, I didn't know the word at the time, but looking to be an ally for my women, coworkers and colleagues. Things like making sure that there is gender representation in panels that we're putting together or presentations that were going on. And over time I have to tell you both, I loved doing that advocacy work so much and I really liked it a lot more than being a VP of engineering.

So that's when and this goes back 10 years now, that's when I was like, you know, I want to do this kind of work full time. So I changed my pivoted basically. I changed what I was doing professionally. I became a leadership coach, focusing on women working in tech. And along the way I started this leadership coaching practice. I was interviewing women talking to women coaching women and realizing, you know what I could be the best coach on the planet, which I don't think I am, that's still a work in progress. But even if I were, if I really wanted to help my coaching clients, I had to make their companies more inclusive because they were all working in tech companies where the closer you got to the C suite, the maler and paler it got. And that's when I started exploring this whole concept of allyship and I started my Twitter handle @BetterAllies. The goal of this Twitter handle was to share like these simple everyday actions people could take to be inclusive things like well I'm gonna notice when interruptions happen in the meetings I attend and redirect the conversation back to hey I'd like to hear Deborah finish what she was saying or if Cathy said something in a meeting and maybe it didn't really go anywhere but then some guy repeated it in the same meeting, you know that out over on twitter, I'd say something like you know if I notice someone hijacking someone else's idea, I'll speak up and say hey I I like the way you built on Cathy's idea that she brought up earlier. Just these simple things. Well over time this little twitter handle started growing in popularity. I started getting speaking engagements at companies and conferences and then every time I gave a talk, someone in the audience like during that Q and A. At the end would say, hey Karen this talk was good but we want more, do you have a book?  You can imagine the first time I got that question. It was like yeah I don't want that. So that's a big project there, you don't have a book, I just do this tweeting I don't have a book next time notebook yet and I just kept going and finally like I have to write the darn book, so I did and as you mentioned, it's on its second edition now.

Cathy: Well that's great. And we're glad you wrote the book. So kudos to whoever said the first person who said you need to write a book, Karen.

Deborah: Well when Cathy and I began our exploration of the challenges facing women in the workplace, especially male dominated workplaces and we started doing our homework that is when we came upon your book, Karen, your book intrigued me for its title Better Allies, but I have to say that in my view and I've shared this with you but I want our listeners to hear it too. Your title under-sells itself! What I found was not just a book about Ally ship, but a broad overview of the problem of bias itself with a primer for anyone who cares to confront her or his own privilege and prejudices. I also found your book chock full of jam packed with specific actions I could take as an Ally and then beyond that in sort of the third part of your book, I found a breakdown of specific actions that an organization can take to become an inclusive place. I was convinced after reading this book, I have to say that the solutions are out there to convert our workplace to an environment that welcomes everyone. If only we could muster the will to do so or get the word out.

Cathy: And in doing our research Deborah and I also came to believe that there are solutions out there to achieve workplace parity and that's why we're so excited to have you, Karen, here to share your thoughts and all of your true gems on the Parity Podcast. So jumping in in your chapter on starting the Allied journey, you introduced the topic of privilege. I loved this section for a couple of reasons, but one important one was because of how nuanced your treatment of this very difficult topic is. You described privilege as something that is more of a sliding scale. Where on a list of maybe 50 privileges some of us might have closer to 40 privileges and others might have only 20 privileges. Can you tell us about your concept of privilege, how you came up with this list and why it is so important?

Karen: Yeah, it is so foundational to all of this work. Now here's the thing. When we understand our privilege, we get insight and empathy. Maybe two people who don't have all of the same privileges we have, we start to realize that oh everyone isn't navigating the workplace the same way I am because of the privilege I have. And what is fascinating to me too is I think, and I've been there myself when our privilege is pointed out to us like, oh, you have so much privilege. We tend to get defensive. I think it's just human nature because it sounds almost like someone saying, you know, you're lazy or you haven't had to work hard to get where you are today. Or maybe you have some like big trust fund that you're, you know, you've relied on over your life. We take it the wrong way. But here's the thing like privileges, simply this unearned set of benefits we get because we're part of a group, a group being based on our gender, our race, our sexual orientation and identity. Um, the religion that we may follow or not. Even the financial privilege we have when we have enough money in the bank that we don't have to worry about paying our bills month to month. Um, we have privilege if we are not a caregiver, even though there's a lot of wonderful parts about being a caregiver, there's also a privilege to operating and navigating the workplace if you don't have those responsibilities outside of work, right?

There's so many ways with privilege comes up. I like the way you phrased it as a sliding scale of privilege. When I was doing the research for my book, I talked to so many people and I started realizing how nuanced it can be. And that's when I collected this list of 50 ways that you might have privilege in the workplace. It's in my book. It's also a free download on my website so people can go to betterallies.com and take a look at this list. But I wanted people I encourage people like take stock of your privilege, go through this list and think to yourself. Well yeah, I have that or I don't have that. But also is there anything that you're surprised by? Is there anything that you find surprising that is on a list of privilege? Um An it's a good exercise to reflect and to think and to see how that might help you become a better ally moving forward.

Cathy: You know, I really like the way you talk about privilege, Karen because I think you're right, a lot of people do get defensive and get their backup for me. When I started hearing about privilege for the first time, I didn't really get defensive, but I didn't really get it either. And what I have come to read about and learn and understand is that when you have privilege, sometimes it is hard to see it it's easier to see when you're navigating without the privilege than when you're navigating with the privilege. And in addition to your book, a couple of resources that have really helped me better understand privilege. One is Waking up White by Debby Irving. I just love her, Karen, you're shaking your head, you know who I'm talking about here. She's a public school teacher and she's really devoted her life to better understanding privilege and racism. And then more recently I've begun watching a podcast. It's called Behind the Scenes. It's a podcast associated with the Daily Show by Trevor Noah. But this podcast is hosted by Roy Wood Jr and he does such a great job of talking about different things that are happening in the news and current events and how privilege is attached to it or how systemic racism is maybe underlying all of it. So those are just a couple of additional resources listeners and we'll drop not only what Karen mentioned but also those resources into the show notes.

Karen: And hey Cathy, just coincidentally this morning on twitter, I tweeted a quote from Debby Irving who wrote Waking up White and the quote is “I can't give away my privilege. I've got it. Whether I want it or not. What I can do is use my privilege to create change.”

Cathy: Oh I love that. That's really good.

Deborah: Yeah, that's really nice. I love the discussion of privilege because I think we've released, we've said this too, but to summarize that it really takes into account that all of us have some privilege and we have not others and we don't have other privileges. And so rather it being a question of I have privilege and you don't, we can look more than nuances of some privileges we enjoy and then others we don't enjoy. And to me that really helps us build empathy for everyone because we may not recognize that those who appear privileged in some ways may actually be underprivileged in other ways. This leads me to a second question that we'd like to ask you. Or it's another question that's really been on my mind. And when Cathy and I talk about DEI, we've talked about the importance of intentionally including everyone and the importance in particular of involving men. But we've worried at the same at the same time that we could alienate men, especially if you perceive as a man as a man that you are going to be on the losing end of diversity efforts.

So can you talk about how we can make sure that we don't end up alienating certain groups in the process of promoting our DEI efforts because we know that it's not to anyone's advantage if we do that if we lose out on men?

Karen: I know. Oh and I've heard from men like that too, um who are concerned that their careers will be hampered by having a focus on diversity and inclusion where like, well why isn't there a training program that I can go to to develop my leadership skills? Why are you investing in leadership schools for underrepresented groups? I've heard from these people. I've had conversations. What I try to emphasize though is that when we have a more diverse workforce and more inclusive workforce, the organization is going to do better. Um and there's so many studies out there right? There are studies about like the financial benefits, improved financial things. There's a study about the innovation that happens, about the better decision making. But what I like to think of is a pie. The pie is not fixed here folks. The pie is our organization and our organization's success. And as the organization gets more successful, the pie grows. So even though our sliver of the pie in terms of our responsibility or our um compensation and so forth, that sliver may feel like it's getting smaller because more people are being welcomed into it. We're actually getting more volume overall because that that pie just keeps growing. So our our slice gets bigger even though the maybe the little angle if you can imagine that coming out from the center is smaller.

So I try to emphasize that now, hopefully they'll have that mindset like a growth mindset versus that fixed mindset. But then as we are navigating conversations with people who might feel that they are. I like the way you said that, but we don't want to alienate people. I really like this approach of calling people in when I'm giving someone feedback or pointing something out. I call them in with this approach that is basically seeking common ground and then educating someone, seek common ground. So you kind of build up a rapport and then bring them along on the journey that maybe you have been on yourself. So in practice because I always like to make this stuff really tangible. I was in a book club just a couple of months after George Floyd was murdered and it was a book club with my girlfriends and we were reading Me and White Supremacy by Layla Saad. Great book by Layla Saad, I'm seeing some heads nod in the room, maybe you read it.

Cathy: Yes, so good.

Karen: Yeah. And Layla Saad, as you know, is a Black author. Now one of my friends in that Book Club discussion that we had. Well let me back up. Layla Saad also has some, YouTube videos that correspond with her book and we had watched one of those videos and one of my friends in the Book Club said “I really liked the video. The author is so articulate.” Now folks, that's a problem and I'll explain why in a sec. I didn't say anything in the moment. But right after we ended our Book Club discussion, I texted my friend, I said can we hop on a call, I want to talk to you about something. So we got on a call and I told her, I said when you said that the author was so articulate, um I want to let you know it stood out to me because and here I am seeking common ground with her is like, I used to think that was a compliment when you told someone they were articulate, but I have since learned. So here I'm bringing her along on my journey. I have since learned that many Black people don't think of it as a compliment because they're like, well why wouldn't you think I'm articulate? Why wouldn't you think an author would be articulate? Why?

And so it's better to focus on how powerful the messages for example. So that's an approach I like is seeking common ground and then educating so that we don't shame and blame. I'll say one other thing about how we cannot alienate certain groups because I think we need to be vulnerable ourselves as better allies and share mistakes we make them, because we're going to make them. That's part of being an ally is you're not going to get it right all the time and you need to get you need to try and you're gonna make some mistakes. So in my newsletter, you mentioned it before, Five Ally Actions, it includes when I make mistakes during the week. I share what I've done and what I've learned about my mistake in that newsletter. So I'm sort of modeling that vulnerability. I am teaching others as we go along. But you don't have to have a newsletter to share your mistakes. So I think that I want to encourage people think about mistakes you've made, dig into that vulnerability well inside of you and see if you can't be very honest about what you did and what you learned.

Cathy: I really like everything you just said. And it also seems to me that because of this whole concept of allyship – and I kind of wish I knew what's the history, who decided that we needed allies - because I think it's a great idea because from a big picture standpoint. By talking about allies, we're now inviting everyone in the organization to the table. It's not just underrepresented people at the table. We now have allies sitting at the table, hopefully. I mean the goal is 100% of the organization is now sitting at the table and so together we can start making decisions about what's the best approach and what kind of culture do we want to have and things like that. And if you're involved in helping to build something, then I think you're going to be less likely to be defensive and less likely to be like, hey, I don't like this or I'm scared or I don't know what's going on. And so I'm going to complain about it and not be supportive.

Deborah: Yeah, I like that Cathy. I think it makes a big difference to really open the discussion up and also seek input from everyone on how we make a culture a more inclusive place. Um, because none of us has the complete answer to that, right? So we really, we really benefit from hearing what others have to say on the subject. So, Karen in your book, you talked a lot about shifting one's behavior first to become an ally. One tip I really liked was that we should all look at our own network and see how diverse it is because we may find that we are surrounding ourselves with people who look like us. Can you provide some more insight into what it means for people to expand their own networks?

Karen: Yeah, I learned this phrase Just Like Me networks that we tend to have networks that are just full of people just like me. And let's face it because we like hanging out with people that we have something in common with. And often that is, um, you know, going to represents itself in terms of demographics, the same age, or the same gender, or whatever. And there's so much social science research that backs this up. One thing I find fascinating is a trend that researchers have studied of men outside of work tend to hang out with male coworkers. So it might be like on the golf course or a virtual poker game or drinks after work or something else, but men are hanging out with male colleagues having some fun socializing. They are strengthening those professional ties, right? And they were really talking about some business as well. It's going to come out. And then, you know, Monday morning, they're all going to be a little bit closer as a result.

And by contrast, women, we tend to hang out with members of our community more than coworkers. So it might be if we are volunteering at an organization or a book club that we are part of or if we have young children, it's going to be other parents at our kids school. So we have rich networks and broad networks, but they aren't necessarily those professional networks that were deepening ties. So again, um, it's another way that we call it the old boys club that, you know, the old boys network and it propagates because of how we socialize. What we should be doing is really like get to know our coworkers who aren't like us. So somebody new joins our team, reach out to them. Set up a virtual coffee or an in person thing depending on how things are going with the pandemic and where you are located and all of that. But get to know them, um, learn a little bit something about them, see, see what you have in common with them and of course talk about their career goals and maybe you can connect some dots down the road.

Another thing I'd like to recommend for people in expanding their network is if your company has employee resource groups for all sorts of different demographics, like think about joining one or two of them when you're not actually a part of that demographic. Of course ask permission, ask if they're open to allies joining, but it's an amazing way to get to know other people, but also to better understand the conversations that are happening, the challenges, the issues that they're raising. So that's another thing I'll also say to two other quick ideas is attend events for people who you aren't a part of that demographic. I'm from tech. So in tech, there are so many of these events being meetups or conferences, Latinas in tech or the lesbians who tech or Black engineers and so forth. When I attend these, I learn so much and of course I get to expand my network to.

And last but not least my last tip here is if you don't already do this. Look to volunteer for nonprofits in your own community that serve a marginalized group and that again, you will diversify your network that way.

Cathy: All great ideas. And, and one of the things that I really like about all of these ideas, Karen, is that we can all do these things. They don't cost us money. Um, there's no like you've got to have certain skills in order to do this. You just have to have a desire to build new relationships with different kinds of people and then just go for it. Just go for it. So great.

Deborah: Great tips for our listeners to add to that too. I think in some ways it's just as simple as also correcting for your own bias, right? If I have a bias toward white women who are approximately the same age I am, and you can name maybe some other characteristics along the way that I have in common with that person. That is where I will naturally gravitate. I'm the first one to admit it. But catch yourself right? I catch myself constantly because I love my relationships with people who do not look like me, I value a wide variety of relationships. So I want to make sure that I don't somehow default to, I don't know, some behavior I learned when I was a little girl.

Cathy: We just called that being a good defensive driver in our previous episode Deborah, you know, self correcting. Looking for unconscious bias coming out of our own mouths and then correcting ourselves. So Karen, I recently saw an interesting report in which white women were asked about their ally behaviors and they believed they were being good allies to women of color. The women of color, however, did not agree. I was startled by the wide difference of opinion and would like to see that change. Absolutely see that change. So here's my question, how can white women be better allies to Black, Indigenous, and other women of color?

Karen: Okay, so good question. And that research I think is very compelling and important and eye opening. So it's a good question. I have a couple of things I want to say, one is a lot of this depends on your own privilege and the setting you are in. Um what do I mean by that now in the setting I'm in. I'm an author, I know a lot about how important it is for people to leave reviews of my book on Amazon on Goodreads and so forth. That is so important to any author to get just credibility and build up awareness. So when I read a book by a woman of color, and I read only nonfiction, I must admit are mostly nonfiction. So it's nonfiction books, but I make a point of leaving a positive review, an honest review, but a positive review of something I learned or something I appreciated about the book. So like that's something I can do to be an ally for women of color. I might also quote a woman of color in my weekly newsletter again because that's the setting I'm operating in. How can I help amplify their work? I can quote them in my newsletter. I was just talking to someone who works in an academic medicine department teaching medicine. And one thing she says she does is she always is looking to bring a more junior faculty member of color to do a project with her to do some research to coauthor a paper again, the setting that she operates and that is how people can really give credibility and sponsor someone from an underrepresented group.

Here's the thing though, that these are very setting specific. And we have to make sure that whatever we are doing in our setting is something that the women of color want us to be doing. Um, and it's very easy and I've fallen into this trap. An example: “Hey, I see you're giving a talk. Do you want to do a trial run so I can give you feedback”? Well that might be helpful, but maybe that person is a really polished, amazing, skilled public speaker and it just comes across as like this condescending stuff like that's not an ally, like you're being condescending towards me. I can just imagine how that might play out.

So we really have to be checking in with the women that we work with, the women of color that we work with. Um getting to know them ahead of time of course building up that relationship, having them in our network. But then asking like how can I best support you with this thing you're doing or um is there something I could be doing differently to be a better ally to create a more inclusive workplace? Like check in with people and ask them what they need, what they want, what they would appreciate and don't just assume you know what's best.

Cathy: Great tip, Karen. Ask what do you want or need, and then if you can do it, execute.

Deborah: Karen, there was something else I heard you say they're too which was using your specific position of power. So in your position as an author, your voice means something when you endorse something that someone else said I in my position of power could bring someone along to a client meeting because I know how important that face to face interaction is. I have a position of power in that way to control. You know who meets the client and obviously that's just one example. So that's what struck me about what you said was that specific position of power that you have to really make a difference. So in our Parity Prescription Cathy and I have also discussed how important it is to have frank discussions about bias and to root it out whenever possible to. I recently gained a friend where we've agreed to be able to share candidly with one another. We had that conversation um me as a white woman and he is a black man and I really appreciate that we can share our perspectives in a place that is safe for both of us but it's hard to find safe spaces when we all have such strong emotions associated with you know this this experience that he has and I have to being sidelined. What can I do when a person uses his or her privilege to turn this conversation back to herself or himself?  I've shifted gears here a little bit but I noticed when we have these candid conversations that sometimes what happens is the person holding the privileges privilege finds a way to bring it back to herself or himself. How do you deal with that situation?

Karen: Alright yeah. So let's make this real as you were talking I was thinking about a conversation I had with my mom.

Deborah: Okay, does she know you're going to say? We won't tell her Cathy has done this before too.

[laughter]

Cathy: Oh yes. Oh yeah this isn't going anywhere.

Deborah: This is just for the three of us.

Karen: To set context, I have a niece - her granddaughter, and my niece - is very active in our community as a white woman in Black Lives Matter protests. She protests every Sunday on the steps of a like a town hall, and I was talking to my mom about this and how I really respected what my niece was doing this, and my mother said, well yeah, she's doing that for Black lives Matter, but I believe all lives matter. And then she started talking about like, you know, she and she's definitely had some hardships over her life and things haven't been easy for her. Um and she's like all lives Matter. Um and so that this is maybe an example of we're talking about one underrepresented group and you know, my mom in this instance kind of turned around and made it about herself and tried to change the conversation.

So I just spoke up in the moment and I said to her like, Mom, Black Lives Matter isn't saying that all lives don't matter. It's saying that at this point in our country's history with what's coming out around police brutality and other systemic oppression that we're all learning so much about, we should have been paying attention to for a long time, but now we're all learning, it's just at this point in our country's history , we need to focus on supporting Black people in a way we haven't done before, and that's why Black Lives Matter exists. So that's what I did in the moment. I acknowledged what she was saying, but I tried to bring it back to the issue at hand, and I think that allies need to think about how to navigate those conversations. If you can agree with someone again, that kind of seeking common ground, like I understand that I felt that way too maybe or I learned since then it's not about why all lives not mattering can seek that common ground, but really get it back to the problem at hand, that the concern at hand and make sure that that person who is in the overrepresented group doesn't railroad the conversation in a different direction.

Deborah: Yeah, I like that. I see your point but…

Karen: Actually, it’s I see your point and…

Cathy: I wonder Karen, if it helps to practice these responses especially on issues that you're going to hear over and over again. I hear the Black Black Lives Matter issue a lot. And so maybe what I need to do is practice my answer to help me be more confident in the moment in executing your tips. Does that make sense?

Karen: Absolutely. And I'm a firm believer in having some phrases like in your back pocket that you can pull out when you think, you know, when you need to use them because these conversations aren't things we are used to do and we're not practiced at it. And so I do think it's helpful to have these phrases we can pull out.

You know, I've got one, I'm looking at my laptop and I have a sticky on my laptop. It says: “Can you say your name for me? I don't want to mispronounce it.” It's a respectful way to ask someone, especially if it's a name you're not familiar with. Like, you know, instead of saying, “Oh, I've never seen your name before.” Or “You're the first person with that name I've ever come across.” But again, am I going to think of that right in the moment? Well maybe not the first time or the second time, but if I have that sticky there, it's going to help me. And then it becomes a habit.

Cathy: Listeners, thank you so much for joining us today for Part 1 of the Karen Catlin interview. You can listen to Part 2 in a few weeks. Karen had so much advice for all of us and we are grateful that we were able to spend enough time with her to create 2  episodes for you.

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